Ep49 - Sarah Marino: Rethinking Our Approach To Conservation Photography

In this weeks episode, Kim Grant speaks with Sarah Marino. Sarah shares the concept of conservation photography and finding a mission-oriented focus in her work, as well as the challenges she faced in transitioning to photography as a career. She highlights the importance of teaching and bringing skills from her previous career into her photography business.  She also discusses the combination of writing and photography and the empowerment of self-publishing. Finally, Sarah shares her experience as the co-founder of the Nature First Photography Alliance, sharing the importance of responsible nature photography. She explains how the organisation developed seven principles to guide photographers in being more mindful of their impact on the environment. 

Topics Discussed

• How photography can be a meditative practice that helps to relieve stress and bring a sense of calm and joy.
• The benefits of bringing skills and experiences from our previous career with us when transitioning to photography as a profession.
• How finding a unique niche and being authentic in your work can help you stand out in the photography industry.
• The power of self-publishing and how it allows photographers to have more control over their work and reach their audience directly. 
• How we can practice nature photography responsibly with the seven principles created by Nature First alliance to help guide photographers in being mindful of their impact on the environment.
• How being curiosity and learning about the natural world can enhance our photography experience and generate a lifelong pursuit of exploration of creative practice.

Connection with Sarah:
Website: smallscenes.com
Instagram: instagram.com/sarahmarinophoto
YouTube: youtube.com/SarahMarinoPhoto

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Music by Mark Robinson
Song: A Thousand Lifetimes
Website: http:/www.markrobinsonmusic.com
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MarkRobinsonMusic

Transcript

Kim (00:00.238)
Now, if you've been following Photographic Connections since the beginning, you may have realised that we are coming up to our one year anniversary of the birth of both of podcast and the whole Photographic Connections project. It's such an exciting time for me as well as everyone that's been a part of this since the beginning. And it really got me thinking before I introduce the guest of today's podcast with the end of March being when Photographic Connections was launched.

I really want to celebrate it in many ways and I came up with this idea of is there a way that I could give something back to some of you that have been supporting this? Whether you've been here since day one in episode one where I shared my own story or whether you've come along for the journey halfway through or even just in the last few weeks. I wondered is there something that I can give back to you as a thank you?

And one thing that has been coming to me a lot in recent weeks is a few of you have been reaching out to me to say that you'd really like to come to my immersive photography weekends, or you'd really like to do some mentoring with me, but maybe there's reasons like finances that make it difficult for you at the moment. I kind of wondered, is there a way that I could offer some of you the chance to do something with me for free? And that's when it hit me. This week, I'm doing my first.

Learning to See, immersive week -long online photography course. And the next one is happening the first week of April. There's still a few spaces left, so I want to offer two of you, two of you followers of the Photographic Connections podcast, the chance to do this course for free. I really feel this is a lovely way for me to be able to give something back to some of you that have been supporting this from the beginning, give you an opportunity to connect with me and the project more deeply.

And maybe for those of you who are struggling a little bit financially at the moment, or who maybe for one reason or another, you have felt a little bit uncertain or unsure about whether to delve into this course and any of my other offerings, this is your chance, your chance to do it for free. So at some point during this podcast episode, you'll have to listen to the whole thing to find out when. I will share how you can be one of those who gets to come along and experience the course for free for yourself.

Kim (02:20.142)
It doesn't involve social media. It doesn't involve you creating anything. It involves something very personal, which is exactly what I'm all about. Those personal one -to -one connections. So keep listening to today's episodes and all will be revealed at some point throughout. Now let's introduce the guest of today's podcast. It's absolutely miraculous that these plants grow in such a dry, hot place.

And then that we are able to see them and then photograph them and share their message with the world and getting people excited that have never done that before. Like that's a really exciting cycle. And I think it points out how just that little bit of education, like planting that little seed of curiosity can put people on an entirely different path with their photography.

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Photographic Connections podcast. My name is Kim Grant, the founder of Photographic Connections, and it's with great delight this week to welcome the American photographer, Sarah Marino, onto the podcast. Now, I've been aware of Sarah's work for a number of years now. She's often been popping up on my social media, and I was delighted when one of you suggested that I reached out to her and have her on as a guest, and even more delighted when she said yes.

This conversation really got me thinking. Sarah has this deep fascination with the natural world and she really wants to use her photography as a tool to not only help her learn more about the natural world, but also to educate herself further so she can then educate others both in the beauty of nature, but also in how we can protect and conserve it for generations to come.

Because of her past work, she's also a very interesting to listen to for any of you who may be considering starting a business in photography. Now, I appreciate the vast majority of you do photography completely as a hobby and completely for fun, but this conversation will be of interest to everybody, regardless of what you do with photography or where you want to go with it. Because some of Sheda's sharings are just, they're really thought provoking. I gained so much from speaking to her.

Kim (04:34.734)
I'm certain that you will too. So if you love nature and you love photography, I'm sure you'll find Sarah's sharing is very, very interesting. So without further ado, please join me in welcoming Sarah Marino.

Kim (04:54.798)
Hi Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the podcast this week. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I've been really looking forward to talking with you. I'm looking forward to speaking with you too. You're one of these photographers that has popped up on my Instagram a number of times over the last few years and then one of our listeners requested you as a potential guest. So it's great to be able to sit down and speak with you today.

Having looked through much of your photography, your journey and everything that it says about you on your website, I'm very sure there's a lot you'll be able to share with us today that people will find very inspiring. So before we go down that route, I wondered if you could go way back to the beginning of your journey and share the story of what got you into photography in the first place. Yeah, I think I'm like a lot of nature photographers, at least that got started around when I did, of where...

I was already hiking and already backpacking and I was an outside or an outdoorsy person before I was a photographer. So the camera came later and I think it was just an additional way to connect with the natural world. I was particularly stressed out at the time that I took up photography. I was in grad school full time and I was working in a very intense job and...

I think the reason that photography started feeling more exciting than just being outside is that the act of photographing helped me focus and slow down and be present in the moment in a way that I didn't have in any other part of my life. And I think that feeling was really exciting, like that it was something that I wasn't experiencing in other ways. So being able to then pick up the camera, head outside.

and feel relaxed and calm and at peace and full of joy, that that was just a feeling that I started seeking more and more often. So I think, and if I go back even further, I've been starting to think about like, why did I feel like photography was even a choice? And I hadn't really thought about it until recently, but my dad was very into photography before, like when I was much younger. So things like popular photography magazines were all over the house and,

Kim (07:07.982)
He had camera equipment. He went out and photographed, but he stopped before I became an adult. So it wasn't ever anything we ever shared. But I think it just like the idea that photography was a possibility, like that seed was planted by my dad being into it, I think. So then once I was looking for a creative outlet, it became, I think, a natural choice for me.

You can really see there the threads that your childhood played in you going into nature photography. You know, your love for the outdoors and your love for hiking. And of course, that little seed there potentially planted by your dad there about photography. And I love that you spoke there about how photography was like a meditative practice for you to help you relieve from the stresses that was going on in your work life. It's really important, I feel, to have that balance in life. And it's great that you've experienced that. And...

It's interesting because that love you had for that and the balance it created in your life, I'm guessing it resulted in you then pursuing photography more and beginning to do it more as a career. Yeah, that transition wasn't necessarily a natural one. So my husband and I decided to move from Denver. So we lived in a very urban neighborhood in Denver where there were probably more people that lived on our block than live in the town that I live in now.

So we moved from a town of urban area to a very small town and my former career just wasn't as viable anymore. So I think it became, like I didn't want to travel a lot. I was doing work with nonprofits and foundations consulting on strategic planning, fundraising evaluation, things like that. And I didn't want to have to travel to do that work anymore. So it was kind of like, well, I guess I could try photography.

It wasn't like I was always yearning to do it professionally. So January, 2020 is when I made the decision to go full time into photography, had a full schedule of workshops planned out, and then the pandemic happened. So that was very poor timing on my part, unfortunately. And I would say for the first year or two, I was very much like, why did I do this? I really missed that old career.

Kim (09:28.366)
And none of this, like this just isn't coming together. So I still loved the practice of photography, actually taking photos and that side of things. But then the business side just wasn't gelling. And then I think I made some changes last year and it's feeling a lot better. So I'm feeling like both of those, both the creative side of photography and the business side of photography are finally coming together. I wish it hadn't been a three and a half year long process, but it feels good now.

Good, that's fantastic. I think what I love is that you didn't give up. Some people might have gone through that, the pandemic hitting and suddenly like, oh my gosh, I need to find something else to do. But I love that you've kept going and you've adapted and you're at that stage now where things seem to be doing pretty well for you and going in a good direction. And I know from my own experience, when I began, again, I never intended to do it professionally, it just kind of happens.

But when I began, you know, like workshops weren't selling out and I didn't feel like I had a clear vision of where I was going. And it's taken many years for me. It's been five years to get to a stage now where I can actually earn a proper living from it. But I think transitioning into a business is quite an interesting thing to do, particularly if you've never done it before. There's a lot of trials and errors and not mistakes, but learning opportunities isn't there. And I really like that you're progressing because I think...

I get a real sense from you that teaching is very important. So was that maybe why you decided to go into workshops, particularly from the beginning? Well, I think that my former career naturally led in to doing a lot of what I'm doing now. So in my former career, I did a lot of things like facilitating meetings and I taught a lot of professional development sessions. I did a lot of one -on -one coaching.

So if I had a client who was an executive director of a nonprofit and that person was struggling with how to manage their team or how to deal with their own stress or how to advance their career, I would work one -on -one with that person as part of the larger projects that I was doing with their organization. Or I would teach a multi -day session on how to build a better nonprofit board. And so all of these are skills that I'm taking the exact same

Kim (11:49.102)
work that I was doing. And instead of teaching nonprofit leadership and nonprofit management, I'm just teaching photography. So I think that I was in a lot of ways, I was really fortunate because I had run a business since I think I started my consulting business in 2010 or 2011. So I had run a small business for years, and I had experience working with people on personal development or professional development. So even though it was very different topics.

it's a lot of the same skills. So I came into my photography business, I think having a lot of, like, I guess assets would be one way to put it, where I have the things in place to kind of slide into it more naturally than I think a lot of people do. And for that, I feel very fortunate. But it also is just such a different business. And I was...

My personality is more suited to the nonprofit world, if I'm being totally honest. Like, highly collaborative, like 85 % of the people in the field are women, which I think just lends a different feel to relationships and how to build a network and those sorts of things. So it's not to say it's certainly all been roses and kittens. It certainly hasn't. It's been, like, I've had to, I think the culture of nature photography and...

running a business within that culture has been a challenge for me. So what did you do before you moved into nature photography? And what were some, because you said it was a lot of adapting and I'm curious about what it was like for you, like the same. Yeah.

It was very different for me. So I used to be a nurse. So going from nursing into photography was quite a transition. But I'd done photography as a hobby since I was 16 and I absolutely loved the outdoors. So when I was trying to get out of nursing, I started doing a lot of volunteering for conservation charities. And then I started my YouTube channel just for fun. And it's thanks to the YouTube channel that I then just naturally over the years sort of developed a business. And...

Kim (13:59.15)
Now that I am working for myself, I just I couldn't go back to working for anybody else. But it's interesting because like with your story and the consultancy and everything you did in that and then tying it in using the skills you learned through that and tying it in with your photography business. Like for me, in the beginning of my photography business, I didn't quite understand who I was. And for me, fitting into that world was quite challenging as well, because.

As many people know, the landscape and nature photography world for many years has been very male dominated. There's been a lot of competition, all that kind of stuff. But it was, I just felt like this very young, inexperienced woman going into it and not quite having a clear vision of where I was going. But now that I'm bringing wellbeing and health back into photography, I suddenly feel like I've found where I'm meant to be. So I'm bringing a lot of skills from my nursing days into my photography.

Yeah, that's it feels really good now because it's using my skills and my knowledge combined with my love for photography and nature and putting a package together, which is exactly what you've done as well with your own skills. Yeah, like I think in your example, it's a perfect way to demonstrate how it can be so helpful. Like if there was something that you were passionate about before, can you bring that as a through line?

and put those things all into alignment in your photography business because maybe it will help you stand out in a certain way. It might help you bring your passion forward in a fresh way. Like with me coming from the nonprofit world, I was so used to having such a mission -oriented focus. Like every day that you're working in a nonprofit organization, you're thinking about how can I advance this organization's mission, whatever that is, to help people, to help animals, to conserve land.

whatever the mission is. And that's something that I was very much missing in my, once I started in my photography world or work. And now that I've been starting to think about, well, I can bring a lot of that nonprofit expertise into my work as a nature photographer and maybe think about conservation photography differently than it's been thought about. Like you think of conservation photography now as like the people who go to the ends of the earth and

Kim (16:20.686)
and track the most exciting endangered wildlife and they showcase that and they like climate change activists and well, there are, I think other ways to be a conservation photographer. And I'm trying to see what that can mean for me. Like, is it working with smaller local nonprofits to help get them higher quality imagery that they can then use to maybe bring more people to their cause?

And that I think can also be called conservation photography. Maybe it's different in the UK and in Europe, but there are so many gatekeepers around conservation photography in the United States. And so I'm just trying to find a way to bring that mission -oriented work that I used to do in my nonprofit career to my photography work. And I think part of it is just thinking about my identity differently and maybe like trying to fit into something that I would have never seen myself fitting into before. Like...

figuring out could I become a conservation photographer without having to travel to all these special places, without being a wildlife photographer, without fitting into this very particular mold. So that's something that I've been thinking about a lot recently, and how do I bring some of that mission -oriented work that was so important into my photography, and what does that look like for the next five years?

It's really interesting because it's kind of bringing in that authenticity, isn't it? And finding a way that your passion and your skills can work for you because I really feel the world, not just the photography world, but the world is changing. And I really feel like many people are stepping up now to pursue what interests them and find their own unique niche and voice in whatever profession they may be in. And I think that's the beauty of it. I think, you know, when I began, it was like trying to fit myself into the...

pre -made boxes of the photography world. And sometimes it worked, but most of the time it didn't. And now it's like, who am I? What am I actually interested in? What background have I had? And to not see my nursing career and my photography is so separate. Some people say to me, what a crazy career change. What a difference. And it's like, well, because I'm bringing wellbeing into my photography now and improving people's health or giving them ideas on how to do that through photography, it's...

Kim (18:37.454)
Yeah, it's my passion and it's also giving me not necessarily a niche, but it's like, that's what it means to me. And you're obviously doing the same, which is really, really beautiful. Yeah, it's lovely. And what you said there about being a conservation photographer, but more in your local area, I fundamentally believe that that is possible. There's so much conservation stuff we can share on our local patch. We don't have to do the big stuff.

because that's not always relatable to people. People want to know what's going on in their local area. So, yeah, it's exciting the direction you're going in. Yeah, I think we're so we're actually incredibly fortunate to be in this field right now because we can reach different audience. We can reach our own audience without having intermediaries. So I think the like you mentioning that you didn't feel like you fit in the boxes that were like this is what it looks like to be a nature photographer.

And I think that that's one of the best things about working today is that we can use tools like in your case, YouTube. I write a lot, like me through my other educational vehicles. Like those are things, we have these tools that didn't exist five to 10 years ago. And now we're able to, like for you to plant your flag in the ground and say, I'm helping people find wellness through nature photography. And for me trying to figure out what my flag looks like, but.

being able to pursue it without having to have the approval of others or being able to appeal to magazine editors or the people that are at stock licensing agencies or the other people who would be, like you would have to appeal to these people to make a career in this field even 10 years ago. And I think it feels so exciting to me to be more in charge of my future, that if I can figure out.

some ideas that I want to try. The tools are really inexpensive in many ways. Take a little bit of a risk and see if it works. And it's exciting when it does. Sometimes it doesn't work. But it just feels like we have a lot more freedom to, I think, try out some new ideas and reach people in a way that wasn't possible even just a couple of years ago. Yeah. And I'm realizing as well that genuine connection comes from

Kim (21:02.318)
us just being true to ourselves. And if we can genuinely be true to ourselves and our work, you know, people who people can relate to us more. And it's a beautiful thing to be able to offer. And you'd mentioned there that you write a lot. And I know you've published a couple of ebooks, haven't you? So where did your love for writing come from? And how does that tie in and complement your photography?

I think that that's probably another one of the biggest gifts that I received from my previous career is that a big part of my job was gathering lots of data, analyzing it, and then putting it into a digestible format. So it often meant significant research and then presentation in a format that was understandable by a wide variety of audiences.

So in the case of a nonprofit situation, it would be like analyzing an organization's current, like how they're doing internally, how they're doing externally, and then putting together a big report about what they, here are my findings and here are my recommendations. So that's all, those are all tools that I gained through my previous career of like being able to write very quickly and.

pull together a lot of information and then present it hopefully in a way that was very practical and digestible, but also hopefully thoughtful, because I think that the thoughtful piece is a little bit, it is kind of missing in this field. Like I'm working on a project related to black and white photography. So I was, yes, a couple of days ago, I was like, I wonder what the top blog posts on Google have to say about black and white nature photography.

And it was a really disappointing experience of like, this is what rises to the top. So I, it feels kind of awkward to say this about myself, but I do think that that is one thing that I have brought with my eBooks is a mix of practical and thoughtful that doesn't necessarily, but I feel like that's a niche that I've been able to carve out for myself. And I've been able to do it in a pretty efficient way because I, my,

Kim (23:16.206)
background in writing was that I had to work quickly. So that I'm able to pull together something of pretty high quality and a pretty, like I don't need to spend four years working on a book project, essentially. So I think that it's just, it's again that it's taking what I was good at in my previous life and figuring out how can I do this in this career. And it's been great. Like I feel like it's, even though,

It's just an ebook. It's not a physical book that's been published by some traditional publisher. We've sold many thousands of copies of our ebooks, and I feel like it's been really helpful in building my reputation in the field. And it's something that I really, really enjoy. I think it's fun to do the research, come up with, refine my ideas, pull together the photos that match with those ideas, and then pull it together in a package.

And then again, use all these great tools to then sell it directly to an audience without an intermediary. So I think that those are kind of all the thoughts that are swirling in my mind around eBooks. I am going to work on an actual physical book in 2024. That's my main project for the first six months of this year. But overall, the eBook piece, both our free eBooks that we have available on our website and then also some of the other larger for sale projects.

projects that I've worked on. It just feels like it's, I think it's where I'm at my best with photography actually. How exciting. I love that you've been able to bring all of that together. And I think one of the things nowadays, isn't it, that a lot of people read books on like Kindles and stuff, don't they? And of course they listen to a lot of audio books and stuff. But yeah, we're definitely in a world nowadays where we don't need a physical book to be able to write and publish something. And it's interesting because I'm in the process just now of piecing together.

book ideas. I've got quite a few ideas and I would love, I love physical books. Like I love to hold books, but I also do read quite a lot of stuff online and it's really nice to hear that you've put so much passion and excitement into those e -books and it's something that you thoroughly enjoy doing. And the fact that you've sold thousands of copies, it's incredible. Like it just, it shows that you're doing something that you love and the energy behind it is being well received by people. So yeah, keep doing that. It sounds amazing.

Kim (25:36.974)
Well, even with a hardcover book, since you mentioned you really like the feel of a hardcover book in your hands, even if you want to self -publish a physical book right now, whether a softcover or hardcover, that's another thing that's within reach of individual photographers in a way that wouldn't have been before. At least in the United States, there are a number of self -publishing entities where you can upload your PDF file and then a few weeks later actually have...

like a box of 500 books in your house. And that's pretty remarkable that you don't have to go out and find your traditional publisher. If that's the route you want to go, you absolutely, photographers still can do that, absolutely. But it's so exciting that you can take control of the whole process and again, kind of control your destiny. Like if you feel like you have something to say and you don't want to go through the process of finding a traditional publisher, you can do it.

You can publish it as an ebook PDF. You can publish it as like a Kindle book or in the Apple ebook store, or you can create a physical book. And you don't need a lot of financial resources to make that happen. So I think that's another part that I'm so excited about working as a photographer today is like, if you have an idea and you're able to raise enough seed funding to make it happen, you can. That's like, that's a fun, like a really pretty amazing feature of.

the world we live in today. Oh, that's so empowering. It just makes me think, yes, I can do this. You can do this. It's incredible. And another thing as well, if you have enough people interested, of course, is that you can do pre -sales and actually not physically order the books until you've got that pre -sales and that money there to then go on to invest in it. So yeah, it's so accessible to us now. It's just...

Yeah, I don't know. I can't quite work out. Maybe I've just not quite got my idea fine -tuned yet, but I have started writing things down and it's so exciting because I think it's... I just love reading, so to be able to actually produce a book myself, it kind of goes back to what we're interested in, doesn't it? It's like, if you love something and you're passionate about something, to actually create something of that of your own is really, really exciting. And...

Kim (27:55.822)
Speaking about creating things, I know you're also the co -founder of Nature First Photography Alliance. So I wondered if you could explain a little bit what that entails. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm no longer formally involved with the Nature First organization, but I still fully promote all the principles. So I can't remember when. I think it was, it would have been five years ago, maybe five years ago in the fall or six years ago, one of those.

A bunch of Colorado, I think eight Colorado photographers got together and we were starting to see, just like many other places across the world, that photographers were congregating in certain locations and leaving behind, I think in some cases they were trampling areas, in other cases.

just leaving an impact on the landscape that was unfortunate, things like disclosing sensitive locations without maybe thinking about some of the implications. So we got together and thought, well, what could we do about this? Is it a problem of a lack of knowledge? And if we filled that knowledge gap by providing some education and then some very simple ideas of like, what does it mean to be a responsible nature photographer?

could that help address some of the problems? So we came up with seven principles that are very straightforward. So anybody who picks up a camera and is doing photography outside, they can see those seven principles and then immediately think like, how could I apply these in my own photography? So I think that's one of the things that I appreciate most about what Nature First has done is that they've created seven really digestible ideas that...

I think we can all see how we might be able to apply these ideas in our own photography. So one example is to think about the impact of sharing locations. And I've authored two location guides. So two of my eBooks are guides to other places. One is to Iceland, which we no longer publish for a lot of reasons. And then the other is about Death Valley. So I, as somebody who actually am an author of a location guide,

Kim (30:07.246)
like thinking really carefully about what does it mean to share these places? And in my case, that means not sharing some of my favorite places in Death Valley because I think it would be irresponsible of me to direct people to those places. And one example would be Appiah. So Appiah is essentially a flat area, kind of at the bottom of a valley that where mud and...

sometimes water collects. In the case of Death Valley, there's this beautiful playa where a spring kind of runs through it and that makes the mud really soft. So because from a distance, it looks like it's very hard. You could walk straight across it. But once you actually get out there, you realize that you could very well be leaving footprints and you're leaving a trace. If leave no trace is one of the priorities of being a responsible outdoors person.

you're definitely leaving a trace in this particular circumstance. So it's like reflecting on the fact that it would be irresponsible of me to draw people to this location in greater numbers. So I'm fortunate that I found it, but I also don't feel like it's my place to then bring more people who wouldn't necessarily... Like workshops go out there now, unfortunately. And I think people are like, well,

It's just that cycle of like thinking through the impact of your actions. And in my case, I feel comfortable publishing a location guide that educates people about going to commonly known locations. And in the process of providing this information, we're saying in this particular place, here's how you should be thinking about Leave No Trace. With sand dunes, your footprints are just going to blow away. In other places, you might be doing some ecological damage. So I feel like in some ways, I'm able to provide really

important information that people wouldn't otherwise know if they weren't reading this guide that I've provided. If they just found this spot from the internet, they might head out there without a second thought. But in my case, I can say they're important endemic plants that if you come across them, you should you should stay away because they're there. You don't want to disturb their habitat or this particular place. It actually isn't that sensitive. So it's OK if you head out there. So just providing more education to.

Kim (32:32.59)
other photographers to think about some of those dynamics. So that would be probably one of the more controversial examples of a leave no trace principle. But others are just like educate yourself about the place so that you understand the ecological sensitivities and then can be mindful of them in how you're being out in the natural world. So naturefirst .org is the place to find the principles. And again, there are seven of them. So it's not like an overwhelming list. I do think it's...

And for anybody who hasn't taken a look at the nature of first principles and wants to think of themselves as a responsible photographer, I'd encourage you to go take a look at the principles, think about them with regard to your own practices, and then if they resonate, actively share them in your work. I think that's one of the things that we can all do to help spread the word about being a responsible nature photographer. And the more people that practice it, the better.

It's really funny, sometimes I have conversations on this podcast that really links to things that were discussed a day or two beforehand. And as part of like in my life and as part of this community, Photographic Connections, I've got an online community. And the other day in our meetup, we were speaking about irresponsible photographers, you know, walking through flowers and creating paths where they shouldn't be. And, you know, a few people were getting very understandably annoyed by it because people are, of course,

damaging things and they'll sometimes do anything to get a photograph. And we were kind of saying, you know, what can we do about that? And you've just told us about this beautiful website and these seven principles that I'll be able to direct them to, but also to share with other people now. And I also think it's beautiful. These more grassroots initiatives are fantastic. You know, getting a group of people that are all very passionate about something together to say, you know,

What can we do about this? And quite often it is simply raising awareness or education, but it's almost like, how do we do that? And what you were involved with creating in the beginning with that is a fantastic example of how a group of people who are passionate about something can get together and do something positive to make people think in the industry. It's fantastic.

Kim (34:50.286)
I think the whole idea behind Nature First, I think, is that say 25 years ago, if you came to nature photography, it's likely that you came through hiking or some other outdoorsy activity in which you learn about leave no trace principles. You think about public land stewardship. You think about your impact because you came, you got to photography because you loved the outdoors first. And I think that some of that,

or that process can be reversed now, that you are just an average person using Instagram and you start seeing nature photos and you think, oh, I want to do that. And you don't go through that educational process that you would have maybe 25 years ago, just because you come to nature through a totally different path. So in some cases, I do think it's just people are getting out with their camera and they never think about these things. They never...

it never occurred to them that, oh, if I walk on these wildflowers and then 10 more people walk on these wildflowers, like they won't come back next year, that that knowledge, people just don't have that knowledge. So filling that knowledge gap is really important. I think there's this other group of, this other challenge that I don't know if, like, I don't think Nature First will ever reach the people who see nature photography as a vehicle.

to getting attention online, like the influencer type. And that's the piece that I think is still, that Nature First doesn't necessarily solve and that I don't know if it is solvable. I do think with a particular group of people who want to learn, they realize that, oh, I just didn't have that knowledge and now that I do, I can behave differently. That those are the people that Nature First is trying to reach, but Nature First doesn't overall solve the larger problem.

So I still think that, like we see it everywhere we go, that a lot of places are just being so impacted by heavy visitation and in some cases, nature photographers guiding people to places and then behaving irresponsibly. And that's that dynamic I still, like, I don't know if it is solvable, but it's exciting that.

Kim (37:08.718)
like for in your community, like that if you could help spread the word about these principles and then those people could help spread the word that that that does help. It absolutely helps. Exactly. Word of mouth is a huge thing. And I think what you said there as well about, you know, in the beginning, a lot of nature photographers got into nature photography because they already loved nature and the outdoors. And that's maybe been a bit more disconnected now. But yeah, I always say we cannot care about something.

that we don't love or that we're not connected to. So if you're just going out and taking photographs, but you don't actually love and have that connection to nature, then you're not going to care about it. So it's about bringing that care and that education back into it. And yeah, I just love the connection there between that conversation the other day and now.

becoming aware of this. It's fantastic. Now just excuse me for a second while I interrupt this discussion so that I can let you know how you can be one of the ones that gets a free place on the Learning to See week -long online immersive photography course the first week of April. I'm deciding to do this, as I said at the beginning, as a thank you to you guys for supporting this podcast. I really feel the offering of this course will be of great benefit to many of you.

And for those of you who have maybe been swithering about whether to invest in one of my offerings or maybe you don't feel at the moment that you can financially afford it, this is a fantastic opportunity for you to come and experience one of my offerings completely for free. So I guess the first thing before you consider whether you'd like to take part in this course is will you be able to come to the sessions? So they're going to be run Monday to Friday between the 1st of April and 5th of April.

7pm for one hour UK time and then over that weekend there's a little exercise for us all to do together. Now if you can't attend every single evening or every single day if you're not based in the UK this is open to anybody no matter where you live worldwide by the way. Each session will be recorded and sent to you. So that's the first thing are you free to attend this course and if you are all you have to do is send me an email.

Kim (39:22.74)
personally send me an email and let me know which episodes out of all the ones you've listened to throughout the last year has touched you the most. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to read all of the emails and at the end of this week, which will be Sunday the 3rd of March, 2024, I will intuitively pick two of you to come on that course for completely free.

There's no criteria at all. It's just going to be an intuitive pickings. And for those of you who do share, and if you share from a really heartfelt place, I'm also going to send the emails you sent to me to the guests that you said was your favourite podcast episode. Because as you know, I'm all about connection. So if you take the time to listen to my podcast every week, you're dedicating your time, which is the most precious thing that we have in this life.

you are choosing to dedicate your time to listen to this podcast. And then you emailing me personally to let me know which episode has touched you the deepest is you personally giving up your time to do so. And it also shows me that you're serious about taking part in the course, which doesn't require much time and effort at all. It's very easy this course and it's giving you very small nuggets and exercises that you can implement into your life.

no matter how busy you are. So rather than me asking you to share something on social media and do all these things that people usually do in these circumstances, I want you to send me something personal. Like I say. It shows me that you really care about getting involved and that this podcast is really inspiring you. And it also means that I can connect with you once in a while as well, which is beautiful. And those guests who have given up their time, volunteered their time to share their story with you.

be able to read your beautiful messages as well. My email address is info at kimgrantphotography .co .uk that's info at kimgrantphotography .co .uk and the emails must be sent to me by the ends of the week of this podcast episode being released which is Sunday 3rd of March 2024. Thank you so much in advance for all of you that do send in your emails.

Kim (41:43.118)
and I'm really excited about welcoming two of you onto the April course for free. Now, let's get back to the podcast. Speaking about nature, I wondered, you'd said in the beginning that going out and doing photography was a huge de -stressor for you when you began. So I just kind of wondered, you know, when you're out in nature, how do you feel, you know, when you're out with your camera? You know, what does it do for you? I find it can be quite difficult to explain, but I just wondered, you know,

when you are out there, yeah. How do you feel? I think that the simple answer is that it's pretty much the only time I live in the present moment. So I'm very much, I'm constantly thinking about the future in the sense of, oh, I have this idea, how can I implement this idea? Or I have so many things on my mind, how can I start moving forward on acting on these things? Like I'm not a dwell in the past type of ruminator, I'm a think about the future ruminator.

and my mind is constantly busy. I'm married to another nature photographer, his name is Ron, and he has such a different presence in the world than I do. So I have a direct comparison of like my very busy mind and his very settled mind. And I can see that I become more like Ron when I'm out in nature, where it's like, I'm, instead of thinking about all of these ideas and what I want to do and how can I solve this problem and all of those things, it's like,

Okay, I'm here and I am enchanted by this wildflower and that is all I am focused on. And like it's fascinating to see. Once you start looking closely, you start seeing all the little nuances. Like I would have never imagined before taking up photography, how many bugs are present on all the plants in front of us. And once you start photographing, it's like, oh, this, I see a fly land on this.

this flower and I had no idea that flies were also pollinators and then start thinking about, so this fly is going to then potentially bring life to another flower. And just thinking through the chain of existence and how the interconnectedness of nature that I had never stopped to contemplate because I'm always just moving, moving, moving. So I think the act of photographing has made me stop.

Kim (44:07.432)
notice more and then be curious and then want to learn more, which then feeds that cycle. So if you look at my, if you could look at a, say a 10 year graph of my men, my, like how busy my mind is, I think it's, it's crazy busy, crazy busy. And then that it downslopes as I get more into nature photography. So it's like the act of photographing often has brought more mental health, positive mental health practices into my life.

And I think it's because I channel that feeling more often and remind myself like, oh, I can be like that. Like I've proven that I can be more at peace and I don't have to be moving 10 ,000 miles a minute in my mind. And that's really positive. So I think it would just, I think the simple answer is like being present and then realizing that I can bring that presence into other aspects of my life when I'm not photographing. So like that's an all over the place.

No, that was very clear. That was very, very clear. Yeah, you were able to give real -time examples there of what it does for you and how it makes you feel. And I love that you spoke a bit there about how you then can go on to learn more about your subjects when you start noticing things and the example there of the insect, not knowing it was a pollinator and then going on to pollinate other flowers. And I know that conservation and ecology is something that you run.

quite fluidly through your photography as well is that kind of message, isn't it? Well, I'm trying to. I think I call myself an aspiring naturalist because I did not come with any scientific background. We spent the Colorado River is one of the main rivers in the American West and we spent like, I think, four days rafting on it this or last year with some expert birders.

And being around those birders, it's like they have so much deep, incredibly deep knowledge. And then I went on some botany walks with some local master naturalists. And it's like hanging out with those people, I realize how rudimentary my knowledge is, absolutely. But it also makes me feel motivated to want to be more like them. Because I think in the photography world, at least among the nature photographers that I've...

Kim (46:32.462)
been around is that sometimes you come across people who consider themselves naturalists. But in teaching workshops especially, I'm sometimes surprised at how little interest or knowledge people have about the natural world. And I don't think it's because they're not interested. I think it's because their career paths and their personal interests have never led them to having that knowledge. But then once you start sharing it, it's just like the experience that I've had that I feel so

more and more curious because I've been around these people. And if I can bring just a little bit, a tiny bit of that to other people through my photography, I think that's one thing that I do want to accomplish. But I don't want to make any claims whatsoever of being super knowledgeable about my subjects. I'm trying to be more knowledgeable for sure. I'm spending a lot of time reading and trying to surround myself with people who come to nature photography with more of a science background. So.

I'm headed in the right direction, but I don't want to claim any ownership of that at all because I'm just a baby naturalist. It's lovely that you have that interest in learning more about your subjects though, because I think that when you do your teachings and your education side of things, you can weave this into what you do with other people. And I think it brings a greater meaning because of course, I think that there's a place for everything in life, but I do find a lot of photography workshops, especially.

the ones you spoke about earlier about going to a lot of the well -known locations. Quite often, you know, you go there, you're shown it, you take the photograph, you go to the next one. But I personally love to go on things where the person facilitating it knows that little bit more, knows the local history, knows the local folklore, knows more about the things you're photographing. And you can go home with so much more than photographs and an experience. You also gain all this knowledge as well. So I think it's really nice that you have that. That, that.

passion to learn more about it. And I think it'll only give you more strength and strings to your bow as you progress forwards with your business. I think that seeing that this cycle in action is really exciting because I said one of the places that I have done a lot of teaching is Death Valley National Park, which is probably my single favorite place to photograph. And on a couple of those in a couple of those situations.

Kim (48:54.798)
Educating people about the desert plants. So people go to Death Valley and they think it's a very desolate place. And then once you start looking more closely, you realize there are plants everywhere. And some of them are the most delicate, beautiful desert plants you can imagine. And once I start pointing those things out to people and then start photographing them and then show participants the results, people who have never photographed plants before in their lives are like, oh, I want to try that.

And then I had somebody who participated in one of those workshops. He sent me an entire gallery of plant photography that he had now done. He started it in Death Valley with me and then realized that he really enjoys it and now has started doing it. He started learning more about these plants and is probably then teaching others about them as well. And so I think that's a really exciting process of discovery of where just pointing something out and make...

bringing awareness to a feature of the natural world, and then providing a little bit of education about how special some of these things are. Like, it's absolutely miraculous that these plants grow in such a dry, hot place, and then that we are able to see them and then photograph them and share their message with the world, and getting people excited that have never done that before, like, that's a really exciting cycle. And I think it points out how just that little bit of...

education, like planting that little seed of curiosity can put people on an entirely different path with their photography, where instead of it being a more transactional relationship, like I'm showing up to this location, I'm taking the photo and then I'm leaving, instead it's like, I actually want to explore, I want to get to know this place more, I want to, I'm following my curiosity. I think that's the key to the whole thing.

That's something that I learned early on in my photography journey, and I feel like it's been a huge gift. And if I'm able to help even 10 % of the people that I teach in person, maybe start feeling that way about different subjects or how they approach their work, I feel like that's where teaching for me feels the most, I think, life -affirming maybe and exciting. Yeah. Yeah.

Kim (51:07.214)
That curiosity is so brilliant, isn't it? Because we have it so naturally as a child, but I think as we get into adulthood, a lot of people kind of maybe lose that and they just want to kind of be told something or directed somewhere. But if you can tap into your own curiosity, you start to explore so much. And I recently completed a mindful photography training program. And as part of that, they spoke about curiosity a lot. You know, we'd be encouraged to go out every week and...

be curious about the world, you know, what are you seeing? What are you drawn to? Where does it come from? What is it made of? And the photography experience was enhanced so much by doing that. So yeah, I really like where you're going with this. What practices do you think you'll take forward from that experience? Oh, gosh, so much. I think it's the more, I mean, I've always kind of slowed down in my work, especially in recent years, but the curiosity is a big thing. Looking at things much deeper.

Um, stepping back and just enjoying the experience so much more than having to take photographs and just, you remember that it's, it's the experience more than that. The photographs at the end of the day that we remember where the memories come from. So yeah, I have to say, I learned so much from that course. So it's difficult to pinpoint things, but, um, the curiosity is one thing that stuck with me and I've been using that word a lot in recent weeks. Yeah. It's, I think once you start becoming curious about nature,

that you have more ideas than you could ever work through. I think that's one of the gifts of starting to learn more about the places that you visit and then starting to notice more, building your observation skills, having a deeper connection with the subjects that you're photographing. All of those things then lead to generating so many ideas for creating photographs. So sometimes, since I photograph a lot of smaller scenes,

Sometimes I'll work with people who say, like, I have no idea how to even see these things. Like, I don't even know where to start. And my answer is, well, once you start working on your observation skills, you're going to have so many ideas that you won't be able to fulfill them. Like, you won't be able to actually work through all of them. And I think that's one of the things that makes photography exciting over the course of a lifetime. So if you want this to be a pursuit that helps you connect with the natural world for decades.

Kim (53:29.71)
that some of these practices then help make it sustainable for years because you keep on having ideas that you want to follow, places you want to revisit, you want to try to visit a place in a fresh or a different season than you've been before so that you can see plants in a different phase of life. And like all of those things then I think help make photography feel like more of a lifelong pursuit, which is something that is really important to me. I love this so much. I want it to be part of my life for my entire life. And that...

that curiosity helps make it feel like, yeah, there's going to be a lifetime of things to explore versus like I've checked off the places on my list and I'm kind of done. Like I don't feel that at all. I have more ideas than I could ever work through. And I think a lot of it stems from that curiosity dynamic. Yes, I really resonate with that. There's so much in the world that we can see and explore and so much even on our doorstep, never mind the world. It's incredible when we start having that curiosity.

And I have to say, I think that's a really beautiful place for us to end on today. A really thought -provoking place for people to reflect on in their own photographic practice. So Sarah, it's been such a pleasure to speak with you today. There's a lot of wisdom and interesting things that you've shared that I'm sure have been of benefit to the listeners. So for those who have connected with you and resonated with your story, where can they go to connect with you further?

My husband and I share a website, which is smallscenes .com. And all of the stuff that we talked about today is there. And then I'm on Instagram, and I have a very rudimentary, embarrassing, maybe compared to yours, YouTube channel. But I have a lot of recorded webinars that I've done with other photographers on YouTube. And then I have some shorter videos of my own. So.

Those would probably be the two places my website and Instagram would be the two primary places to connect with me. Fantastic. We'll put a link to all of that in the show notes below. So yeah, thank you so much for your time today, Sarah. It really has been a pleasure. Yeah, thank you, Kim. This was a wonderful conversation. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you. I found Sarah's conversation so interesting. I learned so much from talking to her and...

Kim (55:45.07)
What a lovely guest. I thought it was really interesting that she turned a couple of the questions on me as well. And we had a genuine open discussion, which is always such a joy to do and to connect with someone who's at the other side of the world as well. In America, it's just incredible. So Sarah, if you're listening, thank you so much for your time. I hope you all learned or gained something from Sarah's kind sharing. And just thank you so much for taking the time to listen to this week's podcast.

If you're interested in the course that I'd mentioned, just a reminder, if you listen to that little snippet in the middle of how you can email me to be in a chance of getting a free space, please feel free to do so. And if you're interested in joining the course regardless, as I say, there's still a few spaces remaining and I've just released more dates for the Immersive Photography Weekends in Scotland this year. So you can physically come meet me in person as well as five other people so that we can all connect.

personally and get out into nature and connect with the beautiful natural world while learning exercises that you can take home and implement into your own life in the process. And of course there's a Photographic Connections online community which may be of interest to you as well. We've got lovely members from various different countries and it's just the most beautiful uplifting community and to celebrate one year of Photographic Connections at the end of March we're having

a lovely Zoom party. Now that this podcast has come to an end, there's only one thing left for you to do. It's time to pick up your camera and head outdoors. There's so many incredible photographic opportunities just waiting for you to discover.