Kim (00:00)
Hello and welcome to the Photographic Connections podcast. My name is Kim Grant and today it is with great pleasure to welcome contemplative teacher, thinker, photographer and writer Stephen Hatch onto the podcast. The beauty of nature excites me like almost nothing else and it puts me into an altered state of consciousness where I feel very inspired.
We aren't just there to capture something in the landscape. The landscape wants to capture us. Our photography, our writing, our awe and wonder at beauty is really nature in awe and wonder at her beauty. That's how I see it. Well, welcome back. It's episode 53 of the Photographic Connections podcast. And what I'm going to share with you today is a conversation that I've really been looking forward to putting out there.
I spoke with Stephen back in February before I took a break from creating the podcast and so much has happened in my life since then that's taken me further down a pretty similar path to Stephen's. In fact, just a couple of days ago, I filmed and released a video for my YouTube channel where I was exploring the human condition through photography and how by photographing a plant that most people consider to be a weed, it connected me with the oneness of nature.
Seeing this synergy between what I'd created and then going back to edit Stephen's podcast really had me smiling throughout the whole editing process. I just love it when serendipity strikes like this. It's so beautiful. I just had this real calling this week to edit and put out Stephen's podcast and I can see why now.
This is the message I feel of this week. It's about connecting with the oneness of nature and how photography can help us to do that. So one of the reasons why I'm really excited to share Stephen's story with you is because he has over 30 years experience of connecting with nature through creative means such as photography and writing. And what he's learned over that time is about the innate beauty and wisdom that nature can present to us.
And by combining this with his interest in spirituality and mysticism, he's developed a deep inner wisdom that truly shines in his words. May you enjoy this podcast as much as I enjoyed speaking with Stephen, and I'm sure his words will give you much to ponder with regards to your own photographic and life journey.
Hi Stephen, thank you so much for coming on the podcast this week. It's nice to be here, looking forward to it. It's so lovely to connect with you, just to give the listeners some indication of how I came across you. Last year I spoke with a lovely lady called Susie Beeler for the podcast who does a lot of mindfulness work, but she also spoke quite deeply about her spiritual practices and her spirituality and off the back of that one of our listeners very kindly.
introduced me to your work and said that you'd be a fantastic person to speak to because of everything that you do. So I'm aware that you have a number of different elements to what you offer the world, but one of those elements, of course, is photography. So before we dive into everything else, I wondered if you could share the story of what got you into photography in the first place. Yes, I'd be happy to. I used to think that I didn't like photography.
especially landscape photography because I thought how can I possibly act like I'm going to capture the spirit of a scene. So I really didn't do any photography so that was probably before about 2010. And then, so I would write and I got on Facebook when social media came around and I would write...
about my thoughts about certain landscapes and things, but I realized that people were more motivated to look at photographs. So I got a small digital camera and I realized how easy it was. It wasn't like the old days where you had to send, get the film and then get it developed and have the pictures, you know, blown up. I realized how easy it was. So then I got a
DSLR and just became passionate about sharing the beauty of the world with people. Because we live in a stressful world and I wanted to give some hint of the beauty that is in the world and then put some kind of quotes or thoughts that would accompany that and it became a full -time passion. I just, people would write me and say,
I just went through cancer treatment and seeing your photos and thoughts really helped to get me through it. So it's kind of funny to think I went from really not believing in landscape photography to doing it all the time. It's brilliant to hear that journey because one thing we speak about quite a lot on this podcast is bringing photography together with other creative outlets. And I love that you've brought it together with your writing and then been able to share that with the world.
with these beautiful quotes and everything else that you do, because you have such a deep connection to nature, don't you? And I would love you to delve into that as well and where this connection began and truly what nature and the wilderness means to you. Well, that began when I was a child. I think second grade, maybe. There's a picture my dad has of me doing a crayon drawing.
of Robin in the Nest. And then we moved to a suburb back east where I grew up and there were a lot of butterflies. My neighbors were into catching butterflies and so I started doing that as well and making a butterfly collection. And then I was always kind of socially awkward, especially as I got into junior high.
And I felt that when I went out into the nature in the area and explored the woods and the marshes and the ponds, I felt that I had a dignity that I didn't feel when I was with people. I was always a deep feeler and that just didn't go over well in junior high. But when I was out in nature, I felt completely at home.
And so then I've got to be late 60s, early 70s, the first Earth Day, I think that was 1970. And I got really interested in backpacking and camping. I was in the Boy Scouts, so we did some camping there. And I just really got into it and just loved it. I felt most alive when I was out in the wilds.
And in particular, I fell in love with the western landscapes of the western United States, because my dad would take us on vacations here, even though I grew up on the East Coast. And John Denver started singing about Colorado, with his song, Rocky Mountain High. I think that came out in 1972. And he was kind of like a troubadour for the Colorado Rockies. So.
I, since I got out of high school, I moved to Colorado, went to university there and started studying forestry and natural resources. And then once I lived in the West, wow, I was just hiking and backpacking all the time. It really shows the importance, doesn't it, of being somewhere that really inspires you and just to see that and hear about that connection that you had for that part of the country from being a child to being able to then move there and experience it firsthand and...
It seems ever since then that your love for nature and your connection to nature has just continued to grow and grow and grow to end up in a very deep place now where you really feel a lot when you're out there. Yes, that's right. Yeah, that's my primary source of inspiration. Yes.
And that's one thing we'd spoken about briefly before we came on was that one of your all time heroes is John Muir and being from Scotland, I'd be very interested in hearing, you know, what is it about John and his beautiful work that was of great inspiration to you? Well, let's see, when I was in third grade, we had those readers that you have where you read different stories and there was a story in there, Stakeen, about he and a little dog that went on an adventure.
in Alaska. And his description of that, his connection to that little dog and the landscape just really spoke to me. So I started reading his work, especially his autobiography, and I loved his sense of humor and the way he had this sort of this playful self -deprecation and his descriptions of the wilderness. And he
became my boyhood hero after a while I read everything that I could get my hands on of his sense of adventure, the sense of wildness he had, the sense that nature was so important for him. So then when I was in my 30s, I got really interested in his spiritual vision. And so then I, at the time, the John Muir papers were not online like they are now. So I went to the university library in Colorado.
where I lived and really dug into the John Muir papers and just found so many things in his unpublished journals that really spoke to me. I mean, he's had such a profound impact on the world, you know, I mean, given everything that, as you rightly said there with his publications and everything, the amount.
what he's written and shared with the world has inspired people and you know, to be able to do that all over the world as well has just been incredible and to hear that you've had that connection to him is brilliant. And you'd mentioned there that his connection to the spiritual side was something that you really connected to in your thirties. And I remember reading on your website that you went on to study philosophy, religion and mysticism at some point. So was he an inspiration for that as well?
definitely. He, both the sense that he had a sense of oneness with the natural world and could articulate that very well, and the sense that he had a history in the Christian tradition like I did, and he basically reframed all of the Christian ideas that he had been raised with. He reframed them in terms of wilderness.
So he's baptized in Yosemite Falls and he has a born -again experience when he goes to the Sierra Nevada. But one of the things I loved in studying his journals is that he clearly used both sides of the brain. So he was scientific, he was the first one to theorize that Yosemite Valley was formed glacially and the state geologist Josiah Whitney at the time of California.
just made fun of him that though this this ignorant sheep herder is making these theories about geology but it turned out Muir was right and the state geologist theory was wrong but when you go through his journals you'll see he'll sketch a scene and then he'll have some kind of mystical quotes then he'll have some observations you know numerological observations
and data that he collects and he goes back and forth between these kind of mystical philosophical quotes, these scientific observations and these sketchings. I think he was really a kind of Renaissance man that way. Yeah, so I totally agree there definitely and it's brilliant that he really felt that and shared that with the world and that you picked up on it as well because there certainly is this oneness that you described there with regards to nature and how
when we're out there, there's just this beautiful feeling that comes over us. So I'd wondered if you could maybe go into that a little bit more about how you personally feel when you're out there in the wilderness. First of all, the silence of the wilderness isn't just an empty kind of thing for me. I sense a listening that I am being listened to. And so I find that I do most of my journaling when I am out in the wilds.
and insights come that wouldn't normally arise just in that sense that in the silence I'm listened to. And so from that I've learned, well, people need to be listened to, so I bring that listening that I experience in nature then to people, because everybody wants, they all want to talk about their experience. So the silence is very profound to me, and it has...
endless degrees that you can explore. The other thing about the wilds is the beauty. The beauty of nature excites me like almost nothing else and it puts me into an altered state of consciousness where I feel very inspired. John Muir talks in one of his passages in the Sierras. He was in a meadow of golden
wildflowers and he says, I spun around and around like I was warming in a campfire and then I lost consciousness of myself and became part and parcel of nature. So that beauty, I feel that there's something about it that inspires interior love and joy that kind of make me feel like I'm melting out into the landscape and so I lose a sense of
the separate identity. And yet at the same time, paradoxically, I feel more of an individual, more of my uniqueness, that that's affirmed in that listening that I feel in nature. So those are two of the elements, the silence and the beauty that are very important to me. I really resonate with what you say there, Stephen. I try most days to get up to my local woodland, which is full of some of the most beautiful trees, and I'll just sit under them and...
Today I was up there and it was quite windy on my eagle's perch as I call it. And my gosh, it was amazing. And a raven came and there was this feather appeared. And I just felt, you know, for that hour I was out there, it was just the most incredible experience. And as you say there, that silence, it really does help us to delve deeper into ourselves, doesn't it? And feel connected with something so much bigger than ourselves. Yes, totally. It helps us to transcend our
problems. I find, so I've studied and I teach meditation and so many of the teachings on meditation, especially in the Buddhist tradition, but also in some of the others, including Christianity, talk about spaciousness. And there are, there's volume after volume in the Dzogchen Buddhist tradition about sky mind and the sense that we can enter into this state of awareness that is like the sky.
and that it is spacious. And I find that time spent in nature helps me cultivate that wide open spacious kind of awareness that makes the thoughts and the emotions that appear in my mind and heart seem like echoes that are resounding in a wide open desert or sky. Similarly, some types of meditation are like
descending deep into yourself as though into a canyon. And that's the imagery a lot of the mystics use. So I regularly like to go into canyons and experience that sense that, especially at night, you're deep in this canyon and you're embraced on all sides by the sides of the canyon and the stars appear above and the stars are like your thoughts appearing on this distant dimension.
the canyon is more real and closer to you than the stars or your thoughts. Same thing happens in an old growth forest. I love sitting at the bottom of say a sequoia tree or redwood tree and seeing the stars and the branches up ahead and my thoughts and feelings become those while I'm sinking deeper and deeper into the ground of being. So to me,
Sigurd Olsen, who's a writer of the North Country in the United States, said that when we preserve wild places, we are preserving more than just landscapes. We're also preserving something of the human spirit. And so I feel that intensely. It's amazing, Stephen. I've got a very, very deep imagination. I can just visualize so many things. And as I was listening to you there explaining, you know, how you feel when you're out there looking up at the stars and...
with these meditations that you do and teach. I felt I was there, sitting under the tree, looking up at the stars and in the canyon. gosh, it's amazing. Just return from Death Valley and there's all these slot canyons you can explore. So the canyon is just wider than your body. To me, that's such a spiritual experience. On the one hand, you're embraced and yet you can look up to the sky above you. Wow, what an experience. Wow, it just sounds amazing. Incredible.
One thing that really came to me throughout that, given that you have so much knowledge in teaching meditation as well as doing it yourself and this connection with nature and the silence that you feel so much in, I'm very much aware in the modern day world that so many people really struggle to switch off and they struggle to have that connection with nature. And in my photography work, I quite often come up against or come into contact with clients, should I say, who really struggle to slow down. They really struggle to just connect.
and they just get so frustrated with the images that they don't always take that time to actually slow down, connect, deep breathe, really see what's going on around them. So I know you clearly had a very deep connection with nature and this almost processed from a young age, but have you, like, how have you developed the ability to do this over the years? Has there been, has it been a gradual process or did it seem to come quite naturally to you? I would say
Oftentimes, the first day spent in nature, your mind is just chattering and chattering and chattering. It's hard to leave civilizations angst behind. But the longer I'm there, something starts to quiet down. It used to be easier before cell phones and internet. And now, I think one of the things people struggle with the most is being
plugged in all the time. So I find now it's so important to have periods where there is no cell phone service or internet service. In some ways, sometimes you get frustrated if you're in a place and you need to get a message through and there's no cell phone service. Other ways, I almost dread the day when there will be cell phone service everywhere, even in the deepest wilderness.
because I value those times when there's not even a temptation to check email, Facebook, whatever. So I think that unplugging in some way is really important to be able to get more deeply in touch with nature and to bring some silence to the monkey mind as they call it. But I resonate with...
that difficulty that people have of slowing down in order to really get in touch with nature. So I think whereas we used to have, you know, in the spiritual traditions there was fasting, right, fasting from food. Now I think we can have a certain fasting from internet and phone. And it's not that internet or phone is bad, just like food isn't bad.
But if you really want to get in touch, you need times when you're able just to shut that off. Yes, some very, very wise wisdom there indeed. And I think it's interesting what you said in the beginning. It's like you said that first day of being out there, your mind really struggles to switch off and there's all that chatter. And it's almost like people maybe struggle with that time element now, don't they? They don't always have the time to immerse themselves. But equally, like you say about...
this always having this phone on us, it can be very challenging. So, yeah, I always feel like I would love everybody to go on some sort of retreat at some point in their life and or just go out into the wilderness and really experience what it's like to to live in that basic human, you know, connection with with Earth and its resonance rather than always being connected to people and the bigger world. Yeah, that's for sure.
And I find it that I have myself gotten frustrated when I see other photographers out in the wilderness because it seems that they often apply the same ego projects to their time in nature as they do in society, as all of us do in society. And I think it's important to practice contemplative photography where you allow the landscape, so the landscape as a partner,
So we aren't just there to capture something in the landscape. The landscape wants to capture us and wants to have a relationship with us and our attention is grabbed. So that's not just a metaphor. That actually happens because there's a presence on the other side, however you want to envision that presence. So I think it's important. Let's say you go out, you have an idea for what photos you want to take.
and it doesn't work out. The clouds aren't the way you expected. Maybe it's too much sun, too little sun, rain. You can't see the mountains you wanted to take a picture of. But to let that go and let what nature is giving you become the subject of your photography. I had an experience once. I went up to Maroon Lake, which is a famous...
photography destination in Colorado with the maroonbell peaks and the aspen trees at their prime, yellow. And everybody was lined up at sunrise on the lake shore and there were so many people that one guy was out on a rock in the lake and he fell off the rock and he got so mad he started stamping around. And it was just interesting to see everybody.
And then you talk to photographers there, they'd say, the clouds aren't right. there's not enough clouds for the sunrise to reflect in them. And a lot of complaining. And so I got to where I often don't like to be where other photographers are, because I think we have a tendency as humans to bring our human projects. We are going to take, look at our language, take a picture, a shot. You know?
Whereas it's more that nature is grabbing us and wants to have her picture taken and wants to express herself through us. I believe very much in the deep ecology movement that says that we're a part of a larger presence in the land and that she wants to express herself and know herself through us. So our photography, our writing,
our awe and wonder at beauty is really nature in awe and wonder at her beauty. That's how I see it. I love that you've brought that up because something that I've spoken about now with quite a few podcast guests is I guess that the world or the vast world of photography, you know, where many people travel around, they'll just take loads of photographs. They almost exploit nature, you know, to go to specific spots and get specific images. And, you know, they're looking for specific conditions, but
And I love that you also brought up there about the language of photography. You know, I've stopped using where, when I can consciously engage in my mind enough, I've stopped using the word shoot. I've not used that for quite a while now. And I've also stopped using the word take as much as possible. I now say that I like to make an image or I like to create an image and I want to respond to nature rather than reacting to nature. And I've just found that my photography process since changing my language has
really shifted now. You know, I can easily go out in what's deemed as bad weather conditions, you know, like gray day, no clouds, all that kind of stuff. And I will still come home with a handful of images that I'm happy with because I've learned to be able to actually be like, there's so much beauty in this, even if it's not what we're told makes a good photograph. Actually, there's photographic opportunities everywhere, but we need to step back and observe it and respond to what's happening.
and take that time to immerse ourselves. And you'd mentioned there about contemplative photography. So for people who maybe aren't aware of what contemplative photography is, have you got your own sort of definition of what that entails? First of all, Kim, I think that's beautiful how you just described that changing your language and then changes your perspective. Well, the contemplative dimension of spirituality, the heart of it is listening.
So rather than putting our ideas out there either to others or imposing them on a place, it's really deeply listening. And of course the silence of nature teaches us that listening. So in a contemplative photography, we listen to what the landscape wants to say through our camera, through our journaling, and that is very rewarding. I think...
One of the difficulties that humans in our time have with loneliness is we have been taught the only relationships that we can have are with people and maybe with dogs and cats, birds, pets, horses. We have lost the ability in Western society anyway to have a two -way relationship with anything other than those. And there's a lot of loneliness because
A human being simply can't make up for all of the relationship we need. And then of course when people stuff all of that need to relate into one person, that is way more than one person could ever provide. We are made to have a relationship with everything around us, and with clouds and skies and mountains and bogs and all of the plants and animals around us. So...
Contemplation involves listening to those presences and what they have to speak to us all throughout the day. And it's amazing what happens when you do that. Things that you might have ignored before, suddenly you realize, that crow that's out there right now, there's a message for me. Yes, I love that you brought that up because when I was a teenager, I went through a really dark phase and then again in my early 20s and...
In those periods, I didn't feel like I had anybody to turn to. And what did I turn to? I turned to nature and, you know, feeling the wind on my skin and seeing the light cast on the land and hearing the sounds, I felt held and I felt supported, even when, you know, the human world wasn't giving me that. And I think that's where my deep connection from nature stems from. I mean, well before that, I was very lucky to be brought up in a beautiful part of Scotland.
have a family that connected me with nature, but it was during those really difficult times that I felt held and supported by nature. And I think that is why I love it so much and why I've maybe struggled a little bit in the traditional photography world, because I want, I guess, to have a similar approach to what you do, because that's what I feel so deeply within me. And it's why most days now I'll try and get out and just sit in nature for half an hour, because...
It doesn't matter how good or bad your day is going, you can feel so supported. And I love that you mentioned there about the crow having the message, because I experienced that today as well. And it's so beautiful when you have that connection. Absolutely. Yeah, it sounds like you and I have had similar childhoods in that way. So I think one thing I'd be really interested in knowing, given you have this contemplative style and you like to immerse yourself in nature, you know, what is your photographic process like?
I like people to feel when they see in my photographs that they are immersed in a landscape, that they're not standing six feet above the land and looking out at nature, like perfectly recorded with a tripod, that it's out there. I want them to feel that they're inside of nature, that it's all around them. I want them to feel, what is the landscape?
feel like from the perspective of a plant on the ground or ice crystals on the ground. So I always purchase a camera that has an articulating screen and my favorite shots are to lie on the ground and take a picture through a plant or through something else that's underground, a rock with lichen on it, with a wide angle lens, say 10 to 22 millimeter lens.
to where I get say mountains in the background and then the plants in the foreground and One of the things that I love to do is in the wintertime a frozen lake in the mountains. It's pretty amazing You can go out and say if there's some boulders on the lake right where the boulder meets the rest of the ice There's often a trough and in that trough there will be waves of ice
So I like to put my camera down into that trough and take a picture through those frozen waves to the mountains in the background with the wide angle lens. And so I'm lying on the ice. I also like to go to burns and see the wildflowers that come up. And so I like the sense that everything is black ash and then there are these spring wildflowers coming up by the hundreds. So I'll lie down in the ash.
And it's pretty funny because sometimes people will come up to me, say on the lake, and say they see me lying flat on this lake and, are you okay? Is there something wrong? Or it's especially crazy if I'm in the ash in a burn and getting all black on my clothes. They'll ask me the same thing. And I say, no, no, I'm all right. I'm just taking pictures. But I love the sense that the viewer is immersed in that landscape. So I really like to have a clear.
foreground, middle ground, and background that they can feel that they're in this landscape that has a depth to it. So I rarely use a tripod and what I've discovered is many younger people don't buy wall art, typically photographs, melted photographs. They want to put their money into experiences. So oftentimes people don't want to purchase anything larger than a screensaver, you know, file size. So I'm okay with not having
perfect resolution in a photo because I don't intend to have it blown up to huge proportions. I want people to be able to see it on their screen and feel that they're immersed in the scene. And I mean, oftentimes I'll get right into a cascade in a stream and there's water coming onto the camera and everything. There's no way you could have a tripod for that. I'm sort of getting wet and my shoes are all wet and I'm trying to take a picture right through the
the cascades up to the mountains beyond. But that immersive experience is what I like to communicate for people. So those are my favorite kinds of photographs to do. It's brilliant. It's lovely that you can bring that immersion into them and everything because it's what you're all about in many respects. And I love hearing different people's perspectives on how they create their images because every person that enjoys photography is so different.
It's lovely that you found your personal way. It's really beautiful listening to Stephen's photographic process. He clearly has a very deep connection with nature and his chosen subjects. If you're resonating with this more contemplative style of photography, then you may be interested in joining the Photographic Connections online community, where every month we explore a different wellness photography theme, enabling us to connect with the world around us.
on a much deeper level. If you feel this would be of interest to you, you can find full details at photographicconnections .com forward slash community. Now, let's get back to Stephen's story as he shares more of his journey with us. That's a beautiful thing about you is you say that you kind of practice and teach earth -based spirituality, which I've never actually heard that term before. So what is your take on what earth -based spirituality is?
There was a book that came out some years ago, I'm not recalling the author at the moment, it was called World as a Self, World as Lover. And that's how I see the natural world. Wilderness as self, wilderness as lover. On the one hand, the wild places are a beloved who we have a relationship with.
who longs for us just as we long for the wilderness. And we are constantly drawn into a deeper and deeper communion with that natural landscape, which obviously is connected to the source, however you conceive that. So there's a relationship that you can never have enough of because it's infinite. There...
there are just so many creatures and there are so many aspects to the natural world. So, the earth and the wild as beloved. On the other hand, the natural world is also the larger self. And that's also the quest in spirituality, it's not just to have an other to relate to, but that the other becomes yourself. And so,
In all of the spiritual traditions, there's a sense that whoever the ultimate is mirrors the true self. So in Christian, contemplative Christianity, Christ becomes a mirror of the true self. In the Buddhist tradition, the Buddha becomes a mirror of your true self, in addition to being someone that you relate to. And I find there's so many times I cannot see certain goodness or dignity in myself.
and I go out and I see an old growth forest and I suddenly can feel that dignity because it is mirroring that in me. Similarly, a wide open sky, I don't feel spacious, I feel claustrophobic inside with my thoughts and emotions and pain and the sky mirrors back to me that wide open spacious awareness within me. And there are endless ways that nature does that, mirrors something back to us.
Obviously people do that in everyday terms. They have a sports team or something. If the sports team wins, then they win and so forth. But all of those, they're fine, but nature does it in an even more profound way of mirroring to us back our true self. So, you know, spirituality, I would say, is about discovering the true self and discovering the ultimate, the ultimate mystery. However,
we might experience that. And so nature does both of those. You explain that so beautifully, Stephen, and I imagine a lot of people that are listening to this right now will be beginning to really think deeply about their life and their connection and I guess what spirituality is really all about. You know, some people really struggle with that word, but it's almost like it is. It's just about us finding ourself, isn't it, and our essence and the beauty of how everything in our life is mirroring back to us, the self. And...
I just think how you explained that was so beautiful. And it's clear that you have a lot of knowledge and experience around this and you've done a lot of studying and your own self development throughout life. And I'd love to hear a bit about the things that you offer the world because I know you do workshops and talks and mentoring and everything. So, you know, what are these things that you offer the world and how do you see people's, I guess, connection with nature deepening through them?
I really love social media. We're going through a time when people love to criticize it. But for those of us not necessarily connected to an institution, it really is a place where we can put our art and our thoughts out into the world. So I really love Facebook, Instagram, putting photos, short little videos and thoughts out there and seeing how it
really helps benefit people. And I don't mind the fact that they disappear soon. Obviously there's archives, say on Facebook, but it feels a bit like a Tibetan sand painting. You know, there's just hours put into the painting. And then once it's complete and the healing work is done with the sand painting, it is swept away. Similarly, you know, photos come and go.
There's a new day, a new feed. So social media really is a way I can spread my work. I also write, my books tend to be fairly deep, but it's a way I can put my deeper thoughts down and articulate them in a coherent way. So I've got four or five books that I have for that. I also do workshops.
and especially meditation workshops. The ones out in nature are my favorite. And I do one -on -one spiritual counseling. And I often say I do it from an Earth -based perspective. Try to help people find where are the places where they feel most inspired. So those are some of the ways that I give to the world.
Some of the subspecialties within that are men's issues. I live in a family. I have a wife and two adult daughters and are very interested in women's spirituality and how all of us need the sacred feminine. But I'm seeing a lot of lost men. I'm seeing a lot of men who just don't know who they are. And so I have a hunger to be able to share something of what is a sacred masculinity.
And I find both the sacred masculine, sacred feminine, as well as the non -gendered aspects in the landscape. And so that's one thing that I have a heart toward, because I see a lot of boys and men who are lost. And I also teach the Enneagram, which is a personality typology, which really helps me understand people, as well as the...
earth -based studies. I read lots and lots of nature writers and I love talking about the spirituality of the various nature writers who may not be religious in any overt kind of way. Gosh, I love that. There's a lot of diversity in that, but it almost reflects, doesn't it, about your passions and interests, the diversity of nature and writing and photography and spirituality. But they're all so intrinsically linked, aren't they?
Yes, they all interlink. Every time you try to explore it, like Muir says, every time you try to explore one thing, you find it hitched to everything else in the universe. So it's hard to stop with just one thing because it's all interlink. I love as well that you're finding this connection with men particularly, because I've seen it myself and I've also heard a lot about it, as you rightly say, you know.
I mean, of course, there are many women who are lost as well, but it does seem like it's really coming up for a lot of men in the world just now. And it's almost like they're really trying to find themselves and their place, but it can be a real struggle. So I just wondered if that would be quite a nice place to end because I know we have a lot of men on who listen to the podcast, who really struggle with mental health issues, anxiety, depression, all that kind of stuff. And a lot of them feel quite lost.
both in life, but also in their photography. And I think I just wondered, you know, through your work, you know, what are you seeing and how are you, how are you helping these men to discover themselves? I think there's, there's many different elements. One is get out into nature. Many men may do that through hunting, fishing, backpacking, but get out into nature and let it
absorb you and let it mirror back to you a deeper sense of self. But also find in nature a higher sense of the beloved. Men have so much energy. Eros is quite strong and it just it get it could be too much for people. Well, nature can take all that energy you have to offer a love affair with endless number of landscapes, trees, plants, animals.
So find a larger sense of the beloved. Every culture except ours always had a sense that Eros is rooted in something much, much bigger than just people. So find that connection, that passion to what's bigger. That's what you see in Muir. The whole landscape was his beloved. And you could just see it coursing through his body. He'd get so excited at the beauty of the mountains and...
and the whole landscape. So that's another thing that I would say to men. Find that larger beloved and then the people, you'll have a more sane relationship to the people in your lives. You won't be pushy, you won't feel like you've got to distance yourself because you'll find a very deep connection to the landscape. And so your relationship to people will automatically become more sane.
Very thought -provoking in many ways there and I'm sure a lot of people will benefit from what you've just shared there. I think it's lovely finding that relationship, like you say, with something bigger and I guess what you went back to earlier about that slowing down, just sitting and immersing yourself and just really engaging with the natural world and I think beginning to feel, that's often a difficult thing for many people, isn't it? Being able to actually feel their emotions and nature can really bring, allow us to do that in a very held and safe way.
That's right. Yes, that's right. And men have many deep emotions too. They're just often not used to expressing them. And nature helps, really helps you get in touch with those deep emotions. Yeah. And I find nature as well when you tap into its beauty, it just softens your heart. It does. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And our world desperately needs that. People with soft hearts who know how to be strong, but...
can be resilient and soft at the same time. Being able to be in touch with your emotions is a strength. I know that, so I live in the midst of a lot of Native American cultures. I live in New Mexico and part of the strength that all people, men and women, both feel in the Native cultures that I've experienced is that being in touch with your feelings is actually a strength.
being able to cry when you see something beautiful like Muir did is a strength. It's not a weakness. It's sad, isn't it, in the modern day world that we've always been taught to hold these things in. You know, you hear a lot of parents saying it to their kids, isn't it? You know, it's OK, don't cry. It's like, no, cry, let it out. And then, you know, I think we spend our adult life learning to just allow that to come. I know that's something I've struggled with, is just allowing it to come.
But yeah, nature has really helped me to do that. So yeah. And tears are both joy and sadness. And sometimes neither of those. You just feel something strongly. And that's beautiful to be able to have the two parts of yourself, the rational, intellectual, and the feeling. You know, I see beauty as the harmony of contrasts. And you see that all the time in a landscape, mountain and valley and desert and alpine, you know, together.
Same thing in human beings. The beauty is the harmony of the contrast. To be earthy, to be spiritual, to be playful, to be serious, and to have your feelings and yet your rationality. To be able to hold all of those intentions, that's really what beauty is about. I love that you mention playful there because I often say to people that photography can be playful. We can play with our cameras if we allow maybe the things we've been...
make good images out of our mind and even the settings out of our mind and just play. What do you find beauty in? How do you want to photograph it? Just play around, experiment and see what happens and it connects us with that inner child, which is so lovely. yeah. I think it's wonderful. You see a 90 year old that's still a child. I hope I can be that way. You know, not jaded by life and nature helps you be playful. I live on the edge of a mesa.
And every windy day there's an updraft and it's playtime for all the crows and ravens. They are out there and they are just, you know, diving and twirling around each other. It's so fun to watch. It makes me feel playful. Yes, we can learn so much from birds soaring and dancing in the wind. Yeah, yeah. So lovely. Yeah. what a beautiful discussion, Stephen. You shared some really lovely stuff there that I think will be really
real benefit to people. It's just, it's lovely to hear your passion for nature and creativity and spirituality and just how you've lived your life in line with all of those things. I think it's very inspiring and I imagine it'll be very thought provoking for some people as well in deepening their connection to nature. So for those who have resonated with what you've shared today, where can people go if they'd like to connect with you further? If they want to write me personally,
They can go to my email address, which is canyonechos at gmail .com. Echoes has an es on it. They can also friend me on Facebook and I also have a website, resourcesforspiritialgrowth .com. Brilliant. I'll put a link to them in the show notes below. So yeah. Okay. Thank you once again, Stephen. It's been an absolute pleasure. You're welcome, Kim. It's been a delight to be on your program.
wow, I thoroughly enjoyed speaking with Stephen and being able to go back and edit this podcast a couple of months later and reconnect with his words was of real excitement to me. I thoroughly enjoyed that and I really hope that you enjoyed listening to it too. He just has so much wisdom and this oneness that he's created and this connection with nature is something that I'm feeling on a much deeper level in my own photographic journey.
And it's what I'm feeling really called now to share more and more with all of you as well. You know, being able to see our camera as a tool to connect us more deeply, not only with nature, but with ourselves as well, you know, coming back to ourselves and exploring our emotions and our feelings and seeking this solace and this comfort in both our creative expression, but also working in harmony with nature.
It's so beautiful and it'll be interesting to hear how you guys found this podcast and whether it resonated with you. And, you know, I'm always open to hearing from you. So if you're on Instagram, feel free to follow Photographic Connections and send me a message and let me know how this podcast went for you, how you connected with it, what it's brought up for you. And of course, if you want to connect with me on a deeper level, then you can find all the details at photographicconnections .com.
including the lovely worldwide online community and the other offerings that I offer to the world. It's always a joy to connect with you guys, the listeners, on a more personal level. So yeah, if you feel anything that I'm offering would be of benefit to you, then I'd be most grateful and most open to be able to connect with you. But yeah, as always, just a huge thank you for listening. And it really does mean the world to me. And of course,
You know, photography is an incredibly healing tool. And now that this podcast has come to an end, I'd invite you all to pick up your cameras and head outdoors and engage with this beautiful art form for yourself. You never know what you're going to discover. You never know what you're going to find. And if you can feel this sense of wellness and oneness with nature while you're at it, then it's only going to bring you positive benefits. Enjoy.
